It’s a fact.
If someone isn’t aware, RT is Russian state propaganda. Just wanted to emphasize that. Not saying all their stuff is false. But that’s how they do propaganda, mix something true in with what is the current info war agenda. Be cautious
Good article from forward on the existing Nazi collaborator monuments in Latvia, and their participation in the Holocaust.
I think the keyword here is “Waffen-SS” not “Latvian”. Fascists and racists come in all nationalities. The Dutch really hate nazis, but a sizeable portion of the population aided in the holocaust regardless.
That’s true, except people from Baltic countries, all of the Eastern Block, and notably Finns love the narrative of bad bad barbaric Russia that always oppressed them, and bad bad totalitarian USSR that was “worse than Nazis”.
Just recently certain Linus Torvalds expressed a interesting sentiment about being a Finn and knowing something about “Russian aggression”, well, Soviet-Finnish conflicts didn’t start with the Winter war, and the Winter war was preceded by a few suggestions ending in an ultimatum. By those suggestions Finland would receive far greater amounts of territory (in the areas it claimed before at that) than the stripe of land and a few small islands in artillery range of Leningrad it would be giving away. That’s rather soft if you consider the character of the preceding Soviet-Finnish war. And Finland’s participation in the blockade of Leningrad while allied with, well, Nazis makes the “worse than Nazis” argument more easily understandable and still wrong.
Percentage-wise Latvia had more % of population in SS than any other country including Germany so i think the “Latvian” part did played at least some role.
Most of the Baltics and especially ukraine had large percentages of nazis.
Nothing has changed.Ukraine actually had tiny % of nazis in WW2. It was like 250000 or so nazis compared to at least 7 million Ukrainian partisans and Red Army soldiers. It’s just that west after war absorbed, coddled and promoted the nazi survivors and after 1991 send them back with a huge propaganda bucks, and in 2014 helped them organize the coup.
I’m having trouble following your logic here. Ninety-something year old former Nazis led a coup in 2014? Try again.
It must’ve been that they were so active I got the impression there were more back then.
Also that there is an unhealthy amount of them in our time.
But thanks for correcting me.It must’ve been that they were so active I got the impression there were more back then.
Well, they have access to the biggest and most pervasive propaganda machine in the history of mankind so their narration is the one that prevail in large part of the world.
Like the mere fact that a literal Waffen SS soldier participating in many atrocities was given applause in western parliament and that wasn’t met with unanimous condemnation and collapse of said parliament.
So Russia is setting the framework for their next invasion? Lord knows if/when Ukraine wraps up, they have to immediately start another war or the public will start asking questions about their non-existent economy.
Anything interesting in it? RT is blocked in Germany.
Was there ever?
And yet Kremlin can’t stop from propping up the fascist Legionnaires in Romania “for democracy”.
This is what liberals describe as “whataboutism”.
The Soviet Union just after the war supported the so-called “Socialist Imperial Party” in Western Germany, until it was banned there. That party, as you might have guessed, was basically rebranded Nazis.
LOL the western propaganda press suddenly quit reporting about that ‘Russian influence’ lie when it was proven it was the Romanian liberals who did it.
You should keep up with the lies you parrot.I love how you’re getting downvoted for stating factual information that’s been reported in mainstream western media https://www.politico.eu/article/investigation-ties-romanian-liberals-tiktok-campaign-pro-russia-candidate-calin-georgescu/
Never stated Kremlin was the only one backing Georgescu, liberals also had their role to play in this farce. But I meant the “Vlad the Impaler” paramilitary fascist group with direct ties to Moscow https://www.rferl.org/a/romania-vlad-the-impaler-group-russia-coup-plot-treason/33348058.html
Oh hey, weird how this wasn’t a problem until Georgescu started running. He was in Romanian politics and even in the government for a long time last I checked, so clearly Romanian regime didn’t have a problem with fascist groups before. And all of a sudden they started caring when it became convenient for them. Seems to me that it’s not fascism that’s the problem for them.
Yes, I fully agree that the government tolerated these fringe groups for too long. There is no excuse for that. They suddenly gained visibility recently, and part of the group of actors involved in that rise in notoriety is Moscow.
Again, it’s very clear that it’s not fascism that the government takes issue with.
Fully agree, sadly Romania has nothing anywhere near anything resembling socialism, corruption is rampant with or without fascists taking center stage. If it’s not American bootlickers in power, it’s so called “suveranists” who would bend over backwards for anyone giving them an edge in local politics.
How is this a lie, parrot? https://www.rferl.org/a/romania-vlad-the-impaler-group-russia-coup-plot-treason/33348058.html
Radio Free Europe?
I’m just not going to comment and let everyone laugh at your source.Wiki in Romanian about the group https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comandamentul_Vlad_Țepeș
Some more Romanian sources: https://newsweek.ro/actualitate/doi-membri-ai-gruparii-vlad-tepes-arestati-alti-patru-lasati-acasa-sub-control-judiciar
Discredit those too, please
And then, discredit their own admission of the facts while you’re at it: https://www.stiripesurse.ro/prosecutors-release-report-on-getia-treason-case-intercepted-conversation-excerpts-included_3605815.html
Discredit those too, please
I certainly will.
I’m supposed to read Romanian now? Did you have too many Ursus or palinka? The only one not in Romanian is the garbage and biased western source AP.
Even that says: “suspected of” and “allegedly”.
The normal tactics to throw accusations WITHOUT any PROOF.
When you’re going to make claims you need proof, not this BS.This is just made up shit to justify their illegal actions of not honoring the election result by the US puppets.
And there certainly isn’t an ‘admission’Hi, sorry to butt in on this thread, but this part almost feels malicious:
I’m supposed to read Romanian now?
Especially in an age of automatic translation, this sentence just broadcasts ill intent. While you cannot know what allegances that specific Romanian outlet has, it feels strangely biased you doing all this under a Russia Today article. Also those jabs, man. ‘Did you drink too much?’
You do notice the article from RT is in English right?
Yes, you are supposed to read Romanian if you’re arguing with a Romanian about events happening in their own country.
The made up shit I see so far in this thread is handwaving dismissal of sources without any back up whatsoever. What sources do you present that contradicts what I claimed so far, aside from laughing at sources dismissively?
Again you have no sources, just allegations.
Sources prove stuff, if not it’s worthlessThis is how you do it:
https://www.politico.eu/article/investigation-ties-romanian-liberals-tiktok-campaign-pro-russia-candidate-calin-georgescu/
“The center-right Romanian National Liberal Party paid for a campaign” etc, notice that there’s no alledgedly or suspected?
It gives details
who specifically did it: PNL-employee firm, Kensington Communication
how they did it: The firm paid 130 influencers co-opted on the FameUp platformAll backed up by a declassified document of the CSAT and in a report of the Expert Forum.
https://www.presidency.ro/files/userfiles/Documente CSAT/Document CSAT MAI.pdfThat is how you reason and make an argument.
Now admit it was the liberals, that they shamelessly blamed the Russians and your vasal state illegaly corrupted the elections.
You really gonna call sources into question on an RT thread?? Would I be going too far as stating RT is to Russia what RFE is to the US??
This is a conversation that went into a different direction and is in no way related to the RT article.
If someone uses RFE, VOA or any other one of those pure propaganda tools that as a source I certainly am going to question them.
There is no reason why I shouldn’t.Definitely question the source. Even after writing I realized RT is more akin to hollywood propaganda than RFE. On the best of days could we compare RT to AP, I guess.
That leaves my other point standing. I understand we are all people and are emotional about such matters, but you countered the Romanian source with a jab, then drove the point home by attacking their state of mind. An emotional, triggering response to a friggin link. Deepening divide, operating with shame.
Why do you use these tools of shaming when plain truth is on your side? Why did you not go through the romanian sources with a trusted translator service and reply with glaring problems instead of questioning their sobriety?
So Russia is going to invade Latvia next?
I hope this is a joke. I mean, it’s not 100% impossible, but to compare it as ‘next target after Ukraine’ is straight childish. You sure do know what would mean war with Nato 🌍🌋
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My first thought too.
“my first thought when hearing about Nazi atrocities is ‘Russia bad’”
Average unscratched liberal
Looks that way, doesn’t it?
It doesn’t
For sure, countries need to look inward and start digesting that many people ate the onion in the first half of the 40s. Not because we need justice for the deaths of local minorities commited by nationals, but because this type of behaviour causes great trauma not just for the victims, but the aggressors. They pass this trauma down and it remains alive in current generations. It usually doesn’t even manifest itself as outright racism, just lots of anger issues in general (I guess this part is anecdotal).
All that being said, fuck Russia for bringing this up now. They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. But Latvia is in Nato, so I don’t really see this as a cassus beli, but more of sowing division in EU.
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So, I don’t know if you know, but many countries haven’t really had a chance to digest the second world war collectively. The polish can go from zero to 100 as soon as you bring up national involvement in the holocaust.
If someone is bringing up old skeletons from a neighbouring country instead of working on their million and one problems at home, I get suspicious. Why are the Russians pointing a finger now? How is this not sewing division?
Trauma? They honor their nazis there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiQVVUL6iZA&t=10sSame in the other Baltic countries.
And most of all Ukraine.
You can deny that all you want.Maybe the time for mutual understanding has passed.
If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick. If not for empathy, then for hitting where it hurts.
Why do you say I am denying the presence of nazis? They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country. I am not saying let the bastards speak hate with impunity.
They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country.
The difference is that in the Baltics and Ukraine this is not a niche demographic anymore. Pro-Nazi views are either the norm or they appear to be because the state has been legitimizing and endorsing pro-Nazi views while suppressing the opposite viewpoint.
You see, most other countries do not officially celebrate SS regiments with parades, they don’t name their streets after or erect monuments to Nazi collaborators who participated in the Holocaust and brutally butchered hundreds of thousands of people, and they don’t teach children in schools to hate people of a certain ethnicity while teaching that Nazi collaborators were actually national heroes and freedom fighters, all while monuments and graves of the real liberators and anti-fascist fighters are destroyed.
If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick.
Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?
What makes Nazis tick is hate and sadism. There is nothing deeper to understand there. And as long as that hate continues to be taught and endorsed by a country’s institutions, from the state to the educational system to media and NGOs, as is happening in Ukraine and the Baltics, the problem will only get worse.
Please don’t get me wrong, I do not know the political climate to such extent in those countries and I do believe fascist memorials should be placed in a dedicated statue park (if not pulled apart in the heat of an event).
Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?
Main baddies. I feel it debases us as it does them, this 2 dimensional thinking. White power. Nazis evil. If that’s the deepest you wanna go, be my guest. Of course we have to stand up against them, I really hope no one is getting that from my writing that nazism OK.
If I can use a very clunky IT support metaphor, we definitely need incident management (firefighting) now, but we should always look at root cause analysis to avoid the problem in the future. This is not an unfamiliar problem we are facing (historically speaking).
The root cause is usa
Kill it and the nazis are leaderless
Hey, you’re getting your wish. It will be hard for an already flailing US to stand up from the current havoc. And while it is highly speculative, I have seen some info on how deep Trump is in Putin’s pocket.
But I am playing the antilotto. I really hope I’m wrong!
"They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. "
You said that as if it wasn’t true and stopping the ethnic cleansing of the large Russian speaking population wasn’t valid enough reason in itself.
The other reason was demilitarisation.
Also a valid reason since NATO expansion right next to them, undoubtably with nukes, is an existential threat.
Russia gave them plenty of chances to prevent war but they didn’t listen.
Never intended to honor the Minsk accords, as Merkel admitted, and only used it to buid up their army.
It was the west that started this with their regime change coup and wanted this to happen.
A proxy to be used and then thrown away.
It is their usual MO.Everything you say could be true. Just like the Ukranian propaganda. More probably there are kernels of truth, blown up on both sides.
Just from my personal view, I feel a Russian army moving towards Europe gives me more angst than some very problematic Ukranian language laws. I remember the laws being in the news in Hungary waaaay back in the day, maybe even before Maidan, but I wasn’t really paying attention to happenings at the time.
The last time a russian army moved towards europe they liberated the world from the nazis
Lol, I am hearing the glorious odes of the motherland while I read your reply.
Hey, tell me about the successful overthrow of the Nazis in 1956 Hungary. Was Imre Nagy just a legacy nazi that they forgot to clear out during the 40s?
Sorry if I come through a bit aggressive, but this is just cherrypicking data. And as a sidenote, what a thrill this discussion is! The european subreddits are ukranian echochambers, this feels like the opposite.
What?
And the one before that they liberated Europe from Napoleon.
While it’s true both sides would use propaganda it looks like you’re turning around the facts.
It’s NATO that despite their promise has moved further east since the german reunification and are now right on the Russian border.
It’s Russia that should and do feel threathened.
The angst you feel is a result of more red scare/the Russians are coming propaganda.
If anything you should be scared of ‘our’ side risking war.
It’s about more than “very problematic Ukranian language laws”, they literally sent nazis to ethnic cleanse them and they burnt protesters alive in Odessa for protesting. and no that wasn’t before the Maidan coup.
Here are some western reports from before the 2022 war when they didn’t get too much attention in the press and before they started to claim Russia attacked ‘unprovoked’ and there certainly weren’t any fascists in Ukraine.https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/07/16/ukrainian-far-right-extremists-receive-state-funds-to-teach-patriotism/ https://apimagesblog.com/blog/2018/11/12/training-kids-to-kill-at-ukrainian-nationalist-camp
Anyone who paid attention from 2014 or before would know what happened.
It’s very clear and despite being from the west with all its biased news I still know there is one clear guilty side.I do understand how Russia feels threatened by Nato expansion, but the many ‘buffer states’ chose to be part of a defense alliance by there own will.
But the Russian reasons are pluralized now. Not only is it Nato expanding, but they are also doing everyone a favor by killing nazis again. The first one might be a true threat to Russian interests, the second one seems to be moral justification.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain these stuff and give links. Just based on these facts you provided, I might be convinced. But there is an extra layer of bias in me that will be hard to scrub, and we need to bring Orbán into the mix for me to explain. So I’ve seen first hand what Orbán did to his country under his 14 year, near totalitarian reign. Orbán is playing for the russian side. Birds of a feather…
Even though I know most politicians are trash, I’d rather be under the thumb of capitalism, than a vassal of Russia. I don’t want small kings around, who have it right by might. And that is what Russia is doing now. Maybe US and Europe too, so who knows. It’s a shame diplomacy fell through.
I never said I was a fan of Orban or Putin, I’m not. Both are the enemy of my enemy and the lesser evil.
And some countries joined NATO out of free will, plenty others had their regime changed or couped, like ukraine.
And the eastern European vasals ‘under the thumb of capitalism’ as you say are nothing more than pawns to be used for the US regime. Didn’t end well for ukraine did it?
Maybe I’ll quote another Hungarian, George Soros in (1993):the combination of manpower from Eastern Europe with the technical capabilities of NATO would greatly enhance the military potential of the Partnership because it would reduce the risk of body bags for NATO countries, which is the main constraint on their willingness to act.
Sound familiar? NATO getting them to fight, selling them the ‘military potential’ while the eastrn Europeans fill the body bags?
Who wants to be thrown to the lions next for the US games?
The nukes have been an existential that since the 50s…
Has Russia even attempted to make a public case for Ukrainians perpetrating genocide at the UN?
LOL are you really claiming it wouldn’t matter where you place nukes?
So the US was just being silly then when Russia wanted to put them in Cuba as retaliation for them putting them in Turkey?Well i guess you probably can’t trust russian technology so they had to get that close didn’t they 🤣 We’ve all seen Russian subs
TF is this supposed to mean? 🤡 Turkey is 380k from Russia.
Russia has vastly superior thech.
The embarrassing americans just keep failing to make a hypersonic missile while Russia has 4th gen ones. Russia, China, even India and Iran.
And with all the money they are pissing away on their military LOL.
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never happened.
That’s american ‘education’ for you, why am I not surprised?
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“trust me bro”
The pinnacle of american intelligence and reasoning
Why don’t you go play some hand egg or stickball.
You have nothing of value to contribute.Literally every history other than revisionist and in fact Russia doesn’t deny it, why the fuck would you? Oh yeah, I bet I know.
Quit embarrassing yourself, go away
Outing apologists isn’t embarrassing, it’s enjoyable.
banning you now loser troll
You get that Russia offered to fight against the Nazis with Britain and France but Britain and France refused right?
I mean it doesn’t change the fact that Soviet Union did make a deal with the Nazis and split Europe between them. Nobody is doubting that there was a reason for doing it.
Stalin offered the western powers a million men to field against nazi germany, and they refused.
Again, nobody is doubting that there was a reason for doing it.
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I think you misunderstood. It doesn’t change the fact that such a pact happened and that they did divide Europe between them in it. It’s opinion on how justified such a thing where those arguments matter.
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You get that Russia flight with Germany until they got betrayed right? Right?
never happened.
That was the preceding discussion. Someone seemed to be denying it happening at all. Someone came in with a justification for the action, I was just saying that it doesn’t change the fact of it happening, just the justification over it. For further clarification, I’m against the denialism. I’m not saying it wasn’t a pragmatic decision, even if morally dubious.
Not seemingly, they’re saying it directly.
If that’s a ‘fact’ it should be easy to prove right?
Or is it more likely you pulled it from your ass?Not sure if you’re joking but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact
Yawn, this again.
As I thought, pulled from your ass and the same cheap tricks they try to claim with this pact.
A non-aggression treaty is not “split Europe between them”Wait I’ll return the favor:
Here is the deal between the nazis and their friends from England to split Europe between them.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030005003You might read the whole first sentence of the article
was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, with a secret protocol establishing Soviet and German spheres of influence across Eastern Europe.
LOL Maybe you should learn that Wikipedia is not a source and proven to be extremely biased and manipulated.
You don’t even know that.
And even that Wiki page doesn’t cite sources, something you need if you don’t want to be seen as just making shit up, which you clearly are.
You claim it’s in that pact, then go to the absolute source and show me where it is.
Yeah so they chose to sleep with the enemy, two faced imperialists, you’re not making the point you think you are.
Genuinely, this is supposed to be a socialist/communist instance but y’all can’t stop dick riding stalinists like they’re goddamn perfect. Even if you support them you sure as shit shouldn’t be blind about everything because of it.
France and Britain slept with the enemy. Russia saw the writing on the wall and tried to prevent it.
Russia was the main party fighting ww2. France instantly capitulated to the Nazis.
I get that you are a liberal but accurately retelling ww2 is not riding Stalin. Stalin made plenty stupid moves but mostly after the war. The only reason the West fought the Nazis is because they finally came for them.
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France fought back a little and then hit ff15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_of_22_June_1940
Hiter hated communists. The reason France Belgium and the Netherlands capitulated was because the majority of their population was not the Nazi target. The USSR however was.
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At least when you are wrong try to not load your comments with insults. I guess you are trying to find a reason to get banned while libposting so you can make a whine post about it on lib communities and pretend you got banned for libposting instead being a toxic turd.
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Must be sad when all you can do is ragepost because you have no arguments.
I’m not a liberal dipshit.
I don’t think they said or even implied that you are a dipshit.
Also, saying they had more dead bcs of their “terrible industry” is a weird way to shame a very underdeveloped nation (and if Russia capitulated Germany would have solidified the power over Europe). And akin to implying other countries could have contribute only slightly more bodies & with their “better industries” end WWII sooner.
I’m not a liberal or a dipshit, brush up on your reading comprehension though that might honestly explain some of what goes on here.
Neat edit I can do that too.
I didn’t diminish their part in the war, I’m just not willing to overinflate it. Similarly I didn’t say they contributed less because they just threw bodies at a wall, you’re the only one implying that and it’s an absurd thing to do.
I agree that it’s always the “dipshits” and the “dumb dumbs” that make it weird.
Weird-weird, not sexy weird.
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🤡
Oh, I’m sure the command knew what was going on, the subtext indicates it was encouraged. This is the prime reason that the young folk that have never been to war, seem to be quick to implement it. It should always be the very last resort because things like this happen, when the enemy is demonized to such an extent.
“Even” US army forces were ordered to commit atrocities (for the usefulness of terror ot for the quick fix/shortcut of it), but some units did them in their own (that command may or may not have found out later about). It’s just that war is chaos, & fog of war very real and a tool. The logistics of war are insane & at every level there are just individual people prone to people things.
Propaganda paints a picture for you and the tool to flight it is knowledge.
Never on the same scale as the Waffen-SS.
Yes - to clarify, I wasn’t disagreeing with anything I replied to.
I broadly assume “command” knows about shit happening, it’s too many purely logistic things to just slip by (especially when whole units are involved). However I also assume that command (and historically later commands) decides if they know/knew about it (unless there is direct evidence they knew about it or ordered it).
