It’s a fact.

  • a9cx34udP4ZZ0@lemmy.world
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    2 hours ago

    So Russia is setting the framework for their next invasion? Lord knows if/when Ukraine wraps up, they have to immediately start another war or the public will start asking questions about their non-existent economy.

  • Jimius@lemmy.ml
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    10 hours ago

    I think the keyword here is “Waffen-SS” not “Latvian”. Fascists and racists come in all nationalities. The Dutch really hate nazis, but a sizeable portion of the population aided in the holocaust regardless.

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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      2 hours ago

      That’s true, except people from Baltic countries, all of the Eastern Block, and notably Finns love the narrative of bad bad barbaric Russia that always oppressed them, and bad bad totalitarian USSR that was “worse than Nazis”.

      Just recently certain Linus Torvalds expressed a interesting sentiment about being a Finn and knowing something about “Russian aggression”, well, Soviet-Finnish conflicts didn’t start with the Winter war, and the Winter war was preceded by a few suggestions ending in an ultimatum. By those suggestions Finland would receive far greater amounts of territory (in the areas it claimed before at that) than the stripe of land and a few small islands in artillery range of Leningrad it would be giving away. That’s rather soft if you consider the character of the preceding Soviet-Finnish war. And Finland’s participation in the blockade of Leningrad while allied with, well, Nazis makes the “worse than Nazis” argument more easily understandable and still wrong.

    • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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      9 hours ago

      Percentage-wise Latvia had more % of population in SS than any other country including Germany so i think the “Latvian” part did played at least some role.

      • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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        8 hours ago

        Most of the Baltics and especially ukraine had large percentages of nazis.
        Nothing has changed.

        • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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          4 hours ago

          Ukraine actually had tiny % of nazis in WW2. It was like 250000 or so nazis compared to at least 7 million Ukrainian partisans and Red Army soldiers. It’s just that west after war absorbed, coddled and promoted the nazi survivors and after 1991 send them back with a huge propaganda bucks, and in 2014 helped them organize the coup.

          • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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            3 hours ago

            It must’ve been that they were so active I got the impression there were more back then.
            Also that there is an unhealthy amount of them in our time.
            But thanks for correcting me.

            • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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              53 minutes ago

              It must’ve been that they were so active I got the impression there were more back then.

              Well, they have access to the biggest and most pervasive propaganda machine in the history of mankind so their narration is the one that prevail in large part of the world.

              Like the mere fact that a literal Waffen SS soldier participating in many atrocities was given applause in western parliament and that wasn’t met with unanimous condemnation and collapse of said parliament.

  • falx@lemmy.ml
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    10 hours ago

    And yet Kremlin can’t stop from propping up the fascist Legionnaires in Romania “for democracy”.

  • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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    1 day ago

    For sure, countries need to look inward and start digesting that many people ate the onion in the first half of the 40s. Not because we need justice for the deaths of local minorities commited by nationals, but because this type of behaviour causes great trauma not just for the victims, but the aggressors. They pass this trauma down and it remains alive in current generations. It usually doesn’t even manifest itself as outright racism, just lots of anger issues in general (I guess this part is anecdotal).

    All that being said, fuck Russia for bringing this up now. They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. But Latvia is in Nato, so I don’t really see this as a cassus beli, but more of sowing division in EU.

      • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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        49 minutes ago

        So, I don’t know if you know, but many countries haven’t really had a chance to digest the second world war collectively. The polish can go from zero to 100 as soon as you bring up national involvement in the holocaust.

        If someone is bringing up old skeletons from a neighbouring country instead of working on their million and one problems at home, I get suspicious. Why are the Russians pointing a finger now? How is this not sewing division?

      • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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        22 hours ago

        Maybe the time for mutual understanding has passed.

        If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick. If not for empathy, then for hitting where it hurts.

        Why do you say I am denying the presence of nazis? They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country. I am not saying let the bastards speak hate with impunity.

        • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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          19 hours ago

          They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country.

          The difference is that in the Baltics and Ukraine this is not a niche demographic anymore. Pro-Nazi views are either the norm or they appear to be because the state has been legitimizing and endorsing pro-Nazi views while suppressing the opposite viewpoint.

          You see, most other countries do not officially celebrate SS regiments with parades, they don’t name their streets after or erect monuments to Nazi collaborators who participated in the Holocaust and brutally butchered hundreds of thousands of people, and they don’t teach children in schools to hate people of a certain ethnicity while teaching that Nazi collaborators were actually national heroes and freedom fighters, all while monuments and graves of the real liberators and anti-fascist fighters are destroyed.

          If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick.

          Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?

          What makes Nazis tick is hate and sadism. There is nothing deeper to understand there. And as long as that hate continues to be taught and endorsed by a country’s institutions, from the state to the educational system to media and NGOs, as is happening in Ukraine and the Baltics, the problem will only get worse.

          • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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            15 hours ago

            Please don’t get me wrong, I do not know the political climate to such extent in those countries and I do believe fascist memorials should be placed in a dedicated statue park (if not pulled apart in the heat of an event).

            Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?

            Main baddies. I feel it debases us as it does them, this 2 dimensional thinking. White power. Nazis evil. If that’s the deepest you wanna go, be my guest. Of course we have to stand up against them, I really hope no one is getting that from my writing that nazism OK.

            If I can use a very clunky IT support metaphor, we definitely need incident management (firefighting) now, but we should always look at root cause analysis to avoid the problem in the future. This is not an unfamiliar problem we are facing (historically speaking).

              • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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                41 minutes ago

                Hey, you’re getting your wish. It will be hard for an already flailing US to stand up from the current havoc. And while it is highly speculative, I have seen some info on how deep Trump is in Putin’s pocket.

                But I am playing the antilotto. I really hope I’m wrong!

        • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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          20 hours ago

          "They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. "
          You said that as if it wasn’t true and stopping the ethnic cleansing of the large Russian speaking population wasn’t valid enough reason in itself.
          The other reason was demilitarisation.
          Also a valid reason since NATO expansion right next to them, undoubtably with nukes, is an existential threat.
          Russia gave them plenty of chances to prevent war but they didn’t listen.
          Never intended to honor the Minsk accords, as Merkel admitted, and only used it to buid up their army.
          It was the west that started this with their regime change coup and wanted this to happen.
          A proxy to be used and then thrown away.
          It is their usual MO.

          • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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            15 hours ago

            Everything you say could be true. Just like the Ukranian propaganda. More probably there are kernels of truth, blown up on both sides.

            Just from my personal view, I feel a Russian army moving towards Europe gives me more angst than some very problematic Ukranian language laws. I remember the laws being in the news in Hungary waaaay back in the day, maybe even before Maidan, but I wasn’t really paying attention to happenings at the time.

            • m532@lemmygrad.ml
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              5 hours ago

              The last time a russian army moved towards europe they liberated the world from the nazis

              • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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                44 minutes ago

                Lol, I am hearing the glorious odes of the motherland while I read your reply.

                Hey, tell me about the successful overthrow of the Nazis in 1956 Hungary. Was Imre Nagy just a legacy nazi that they forgot to clear out during the 40s?

                Sorry if I come through a bit aggressive, but this is just cherrypicking data. And as a sidenote, what a thrill this discussion is! The european subreddits are ukranian echochambers, this feels like the opposite.

            • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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              12 hours ago

              While it’s true both sides would use propaganda it looks like you’re turning around the facts.
              It’s NATO that despite their promise has moved further east since the german reunification and are now right on the Russian border.
              It’s Russia that should and do feel threathened.
              The angst you feel is a result of more red scare/the Russians are coming propaganda.
              If anything you should be scared of ‘our’ side risking war.
              It’s about more than “very problematic Ukranian language laws”, they literally sent nazis to ethnic cleanse them and they burnt protesters alive in Odessa for protesting. and no that wasn’t before the Maidan coup.
              Here are some western reports from before the 2022 war when they didn’t get too much attention in the press and before they started to claim Russia attacked ‘unprovoked’ and there certainly weren’t any fascists in Ukraine.

              https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/07/16/ukrainian-far-right-extremists-receive-state-funds-to-teach-patriotism/ https://apimagesblog.com/blog/2018/11/12/training-kids-to-kill-at-ukrainian-nationalist-camp

              Anyone who paid attention from 2014 or before would know what happened.
              It’s very clear and despite being from the west with all its biased news I still know there is one clear guilty side.

              • dzsimbo@lemm.ee
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                2 hours ago

                I do understand how Russia feels threatened by Nato expansion, but the many ‘buffer states’ chose to be part of a defense alliance by there own will.

                But the Russian reasons are pluralized now. Not only is it Nato expanding, but they are also doing everyone a favor by killing nazis again. The first one might be a true threat to Russian interests, the second one seems to be moral justification.

                I appreciate you taking the time to explain these stuff and give links. Just based on these facts you provided, I might be convinced. But there is an extra layer of bias in me that will be hard to scrub, and we need to bring Orbán into the mix for me to explain. So I’ve seen first hand what Orbán did to his country under his 14 year, near totalitarian reign. Orbán is playing for the russian side. Birds of a feather…

                Even though I know most politicians are trash, I’d rather be under the thumb of capitalism, than a vassal of Russia. I don’t want small kings around, who have it right by might. And that is what Russia is doing now. Maybe US and Europe too, so who knows. It’s a shame diplomacy fell through.

                • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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                  2 hours ago

                  I never said I was a fan of Orban or Putin, I’m not. Both are the enemy of my enemy and the lesser evil.
                  And some countries joined NATO out of free will, plenty others had their regime changed or couped, like ukraine.
                  And the eastern European vasals ‘under the thumb of capitalism’ as you say are nothing more than pawns to be used for the US regime. Didn’t end well for ukraine did it?
                  Maybe I’ll quote another Hungarian, George Soros in (1993):

                  the combination of manpower from Eastern Europe with the technical capabilities of NATO would greatly enhance the military potential of the Partnership because it would reduce the risk of body bags for NATO countries, which is the main constraint on their willingness to act.

                  Sound familiar? NATO getting them to fight, selling them the ‘military potential’ while the eastrn Europeans fill the body bags?
                  Who wants to be thrown to the lions next for the US games?

          • Geobloke@lemm.ee
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            19 hours ago

            The nukes have been an existential that since the 50s…

            Has Russia even attempted to make a public case for Ukrainians perpetrating genocide at the UN?

            • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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              12 hours ago

              LOL are you really claiming it wouldn’t matter where you place nukes?
              So the US was just being silly then when Russia wanted to put them in Cuba as retaliation for them putting them in Turkey?

              • Geobloke@lemm.ee
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                2 hours ago

                Well i guess you probably can’t trust russian technology so they had to get that close didn’t they 🤣 We’ve all seen Russian subs

                • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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                  1 hour ago

                  TF is this supposed to mean? 🤡 Turkey is 380k from Russia.
                  Russia has vastly superior thech.
                  The embarrassing americans just keep failing to make a hypersonic missile while Russia has 4th gen ones. Russia, China, even India and Iran.
                  And with all the money they are pissing away on their military LOL.

    • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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      22 hours ago

      never happened.
      That’s american ‘education’ for you, why am I not surprised?
      Or is it your 420 influence?

    • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
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      1 day ago

      You get that Russia offered to fight against the Nazis with Britain and France but Britain and France refused right?

      • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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        1 day ago

        I mean it doesn’t change the fact that Soviet Union did make a deal with the Nazis and split Europe between them. Nobody is doubting that there was a reason for doing it.

          • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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            10 hours ago

            I think you misunderstood. It doesn’t change the fact that such a pact happened and that they did divide Europe between them in it. It’s opinion on how justified such a thing where those arguments matter.

              • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                10 hours ago

                You get that Russia flight with Germany until they got betrayed right? Right?

                never happened.

                That was the preceding discussion. Someone seemed to be denying it happening at all. Someone came in with a justification for the action, I was just saying that it doesn’t change the fact of it happening, just the justification over it. For further clarification, I’m against the denialism. I’m not saying it wasn’t a pragmatic decision, even if morally dubious.

        • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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          22 hours ago

          If that’s a ‘fact’ it should be easy to prove right?
          Or is it more likely you pulled it from your ass?

            • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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              12 hours ago

              Yawn, this again.
              As I thought, pulled from your ass and the same cheap tricks they try to claim with this pact.
              A non-aggression treaty is not “split Europe between them”

              Wait I’ll return the favor:
              Here is the deal between the nazis and their friends from England to split Europe between them.
              https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030005003

              • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                12 hours ago

                You might read the whole first sentence of the article

                was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, with a secret protocol establishing Soviet and German spheres of influence across Eastern Europe.

                • Bloomcole@lemmy.ml
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                  11 hours ago

                  LOL Maybe you should learn that Wikipedia is not a source and proven to be extremely biased and manipulated.
                  You don’t even know that.
                  And even that Wiki page doesn’t cite sources, something you need if you don’t want to be seen as just making shit up, which you clearly are.
                  You claim it’s in that pact, then go to the absolute source and show me where it is.

      • Madison420@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Yeah so they chose to sleep with the enemy, two faced imperialists, you’re not making the point you think you are.

        Genuinely, this is supposed to be a socialist/communist instance but y’all can’t stop dick riding stalinists like they’re goddamn perfect. Even if you support them you sure as shit shouldn’t be blind about everything because of it.

        • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
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          1 day ago

          France and Britain slept with the enemy. Russia saw the writing on the wall and tried to prevent it.

          Russia was the main party fighting ww2. France instantly capitulated to the Nazis.

          I get that you are a liberal but accurately retelling ww2 is not riding Stalin. Stalin made plenty stupid moves but mostly after the war. The only reason the West fought the Nazis is because they finally came for them.

            • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
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              1 day ago

              At least when you are wrong try to not load your comments with insults. I guess you are trying to find a reason to get banned while libposting so you can make a whine post about it on lib communities and pretend you got banned for libposting instead being a toxic turd.

            • Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee
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              1 day ago

              I’m not a liberal dipshit.

              I don’t think they said or even implied that you are a dipshit.

              Also, saying they had more dead bcs of their “terrible industry” is a weird way to shame a very underdeveloped nation (and if Russia capitulated Germany would have solidified the power over Europe). And akin to implying other countries could have contribute only slightly more bodies & with their “better industries” end WWII sooner.

              • Madison420@lemmy.world
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                1 day ago

                I’m not a liberal or a dipshit, brush up on your reading comprehension though that might honestly explain some of what goes on here.

                Neat edit I can do that too.

                I didn’t diminish their part in the war, I’m just not willing to overinflate it. Similarly I didn’t say they contributed less because they just threw bodies at a wall, you’re the only one implying that and it’s an absurd thing to do.

                • Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee
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                  1 day ago

                  I agree that it’s always the “dipshits” and the “dumb dumbs” that make it weird.
                  Weird-weird, not sexy weird.

    • marathon@thelemmy.clubOP
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      1 day ago

      Oh, I’m sure the command knew what was going on, the subtext indicates it was encouraged. This is the prime reason that the young folk that have never been to war, seem to be quick to implement it. It should always be the very last resort because things like this happen, when the enemy is demonized to such an extent.

      • Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee
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        1 day ago

        “Even” US army forces were ordered to commit atrocities (for the usefulness of terror ot for the quick fix/shortcut of it), but some units did them in their own (that command may or may not have found out later about). It’s just that war is chaos, & fog of war very real and a tool. The logistics of war are insane & at every level there are just individual people prone to people things.

        Propaganda paints a picture for you and the tool to flight it is knowledge.

          • Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee
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            1 day ago

            Yes - to clarify, I wasn’t disagreeing with anything I replied to.

            I broadly assume “command” knows about shit happening, it’s too many purely logistic things to just slip by (especially when whole units are involved). However I also assume that command (and historically later commands) decides if they know/knew about it (unless there is direct evidence they knew about it or ordered it).