I read a German article a few days ago. They definitely threatened to withhold wages. They also pressured workers into disclosing their health info. Via email.
The Unions are (orders of magnitude) more active against Tesla than against comparable employers.
Oh and of course Tesla does not like people being in unions in the first place.
It’s the same playbook, but in a different country that actually has worker protection.
It is not only the unions, it is the law in Germany. Americans have a hard time understanding the immense power of the law protecting employees here. Withholding sick payment is about as illegal as demanding health info. Both will be easy wins in court. Tesla will find themselves in a place of legal hurt.
Yeah, I would always pick the law over the union. I once had an employer try to fuck me over the pettiest thing. they had incorrectly, probably deliberately, terminated my contract so that I was ineligible for unemployment benefits. They don’t pay that benefit and it takes them literally 5 minutes to fix it, so it pretty much would cost them nothing to make that change. But it meant the world for me because that would’ve been the only way for me to put food on the table. I argued with them for days and the entire time they’re gaslighting me with “You don’t know what you’re talking about, we did everything right. Nothing is wrong.” Eventually I got fed up. I told them “I don’t need to deal with this shit. Give me the official reason why you can’t change the reason for me termination. I’ll forward it to the labour office and you can deal with them.” literally the next thing they said was “fine, we’ll fix it.” and 5 minutes later it was done.
I imagine a union would’ve also helped me in that scenario, but I enjoyed the safety of knowing I could stick the law in their face and tell them to eat shit. My opinion is that worker unions are great but labor laws are even better.
Let’s be serious two seconds, what is not clear is how any country law could allow a employer to prevent an employee from getting the money that is their’s.
I don’t know how things work in Germany but here in Finland we have an government agency which pays salaries if company can’t or won’t as a safeguard for employees. After that they go after the company with pretty beefy lawsuits which eventually say that either the company pays for the salaries and some extra for the trouble or government just seizes and sells enough property that they get what they’re owed. And if company doesn’t have money nor property then it’ll go bankrupt and that’s it. I assume Germany (and most of the other European countries) have similar mechanisms.
And then there’s of course the union too. They can just decide to either stop coming to work altogether or go in a ‘sitting strike’, as in show up but don’t do anything during the day. And they can enforce that, you can’t just hire new people to replace those on strike.
Tesla is overtly hostile towards German unions and has convinced enough workers to not join any. They have mostly hired foreign workers who are unaware of their rights. Additionally, workers are pressured to sign documents withdrawing from their right to compensation during sick leave which isn’t illegal.
Also, the state government of Brandenburg - the location of the Tesla factory - would rather see worker’s rights trampled than Tesla face consequences. Their future election results depend on Tesla performing.
Edit to add: As far as I know, Tesla doesn’t need to pay any damages if courts overrule them denying paid sick leave. They must only pay the sick leave and for the worker’s lawyer. Denying sick leave makes them more money in the end.
or government just seizes and sells enough property that they get what they’re owed
Nice. Can you link a case where that actually happened?
About the unions, I’m actually bound to partake in strikes or similar action. You can’t be part of a union and then wuss out when the going gets tough.
When it is cleae it will otherwise come to that, the companies tend to just comply. The thing is, tge value of the seized property is considered to be hiw much it can be sold for, not how useful it is for the company or how much they paid for it.
When Tesla is threatened by seizing a machine used for car manufacturing that they bought for 250 000 €, but there is no other car factory that has a need for another one one of those devices unless its dirt cheap, then it might be the machine will be seized, its valued to have a resale value of 15 000 €, and after the altogether 4000 € of missing salaries to various workers are paid, the remaining 11 000 will be paid back to the company. Which can then buy another machine like that for 250 000 €. Or, if they are lucky maybe buy their noe dismantled machine back?
In any case, that’s such a horribly bad deal for the company that they definitely choose the 90 % cheaper option of just paying their debt to the workers. So, it doesn’t really ever come to actual seizing. Either they can pay the original debt or they can’t because they are bankrupt. Either way, no seizing. But it is absolutely possible to carry it through, should some company really want to be that stupid.
Cases where salary was paid by government aren’t directly available online (at least in Finland) but I personally have recieved money trough them and followed the process from the side as my previous employer was bankrupted. Also in here the tax office is the biggest entity which drives companies to dept collection and eventually to bankrupt if they don’t have money. So, yes, it happens pretty much all the time. Most of the time those are businesses which are going down anyways so there’s nothing to get, but there’s no mechanism preventing that happening to any company which doesn’t play by the rules.
Bold of you to assume I’m expressing defeatism. My point is that Tesla can and will fight it. They’ll lose eventually, sure. My hope is that the union has enough money to pay the court costs.
IG Metall is one of the largest unions we have. They have deep pockets. Also, in Germany the losing party automatically pays court fees and their opponent’s lawyers afterwards.
I would worry more about those workers who aren’t union members. It’s possible they’ll still help them out of principle, but they don’t have to.
That’s a fantastic rule that I wish were true everywhere. So many frivolous lawsuits (which Elon is well-experienced in filing) would suddenly disappear.
Well, the word “automatically” is an exaggeration. For example, if it was a close call and it seems you were in the court fairly, then the losing side might not have to pay up, at least not in full. But often they do. Better settle if you think you’ll lose. It’s a lot cheaper that way.
They don’t need to.
Wage theft is a felony and while primarily will focus on the managing director of Tesla Germany GmbH, there is a good chance they will throw Elon under bus or the DA/Police/customs (especially the later have very far reaching rights in these cases and specialised departments…and now the old secretary of finance who was a trump fan is gone…) finds evidence that it happened under the influence of ELMO or his cronies (which is not that unlikely), there are a lot of people who would be very very happy to issue a warrant on these people.
And that very likely would be an Interpol warrant.
Nevertheless the truly interesting thing is something else: Law enforcement can use this felonies to move in on Tesla - and anything they find due to a search warrant can easily be used for other things. And considering that the state Tesla is located in is suffering from a major draught and tries to prove that Tesla is using far more ground water than they are allowed for ages (and pollutes the rest) that could in theory even mean the downsizing or even the end of the Giga factory.
Christian fucking Lindner, who wanted “more Trump and more Milei” in the end. At least he made his own party so hated that they went from “part of the government” to “no longer in parliament”.
Germany needs to ban Tesla from their country as a whole. Confiscate the assets and continue to pay the workers until they’re relocated or another company buys the factories.
I read a German article a few days ago. They definitely threatened to withhold wages. They also pressured workers into disclosing their health info. Via email.
The Unions are (orders of magnitude) more active against Tesla than against comparable employers.
Oh and of course Tesla does not like people being in unions in the first place.
It’s the same playbook, but in a different country that actually has worker protection.
It is not only the unions, it is the law in Germany. Americans have a hard time understanding the immense power of the law protecting employees here. Withholding sick payment is about as illegal as demanding health info. Both will be easy wins in court. Tesla will find themselves in a place of legal hurt.
Yeah, I would always pick the law over the union. I once had an employer try to fuck me over the pettiest thing. they had incorrectly, probably deliberately, terminated my contract so that I was ineligible for unemployment benefits. They don’t pay that benefit and it takes them literally 5 minutes to fix it, so it pretty much would cost them nothing to make that change. But it meant the world for me because that would’ve been the only way for me to put food on the table. I argued with them for days and the entire time they’re gaslighting me with “You don’t know what you’re talking about, we did everything right. Nothing is wrong.” Eventually I got fed up. I told them “I don’t need to deal with this shit. Give me the official reason why you can’t change the reason for me termination. I’ll forward it to the labour office and you can deal with them.” literally the next thing they said was “fine, we’ll fix it.” and 5 minutes later it was done.
I imagine a union would’ve also helped me in that scenario, but I enjoyed the safety of knowing I could stick the law in their face and tell them to eat shit. My opinion is that worker unions are great but labor laws are even better.
I should have made that clearer!
Let’s be serious two seconds, what is not clear is how any country law could allow a employer to prevent an employee from getting the money that is their’s.
Tesla may not be around long enough to pay anyone anything.
Sounds like a suit for the strong German unions.
I was about to say, this seems pretty slam dunk for them.
Even if the German courts rule in their favor (they should), good luck getting any money out of Tesla.
Good luck with trying to evade payments.
I don’t know how things work in Germany but here in Finland we have an government agency which pays salaries if company can’t or won’t as a safeguard for employees. After that they go after the company with pretty beefy lawsuits which eventually say that either the company pays for the salaries and some extra for the trouble or government just seizes and sells enough property that they get what they’re owed. And if company doesn’t have money nor property then it’ll go bankrupt and that’s it. I assume Germany (and most of the other European countries) have similar mechanisms.
And then there’s of course the union too. They can just decide to either stop coming to work altogether or go in a ‘sitting strike’, as in show up but don’t do anything during the day. And they can enforce that, you can’t just hire new people to replace those on strike.
I always forget that in Europe, the government actually pursues fines and penalties levied against companies. Must be nice.
Most unions have enough reserves to take Tezzla to court for a while.
And in the worst/best case, a judge could impound things for damages/payment.
The union could literally end up owning the factory if Keto EMu keeps doubling down on it.
Tesla is overtly hostile towards German unions and has convinced enough workers to not join any. They have mostly hired foreign workers who are unaware of their rights. Additionally, workers are pressured to sign documents withdrawing from their right to compensation during sick leave which isn’t illegal.
Also, the state government of Brandenburg - the location of the Tesla factory - would rather see worker’s rights trampled than Tesla face consequences. Their future election results depend on Tesla performing.
Edit to add: As far as I know, Tesla doesn’t need to pay any damages if courts overrule them denying paid sick leave. They must only pay the sick leave and for the worker’s lawyer. Denying sick leave makes them more money in the end.
That’s disheartening to hear. At least Tesla has to sell cars to even stick around and it doesn’t look good for them in Europe so far.
Nice. Can you link a case where that actually happened?
About the unions, I’m actually bound to partake in strikes or similar action. You can’t be part of a union and then wuss out when the going gets tough.
When it is cleae it will otherwise come to that, the companies tend to just comply. The thing is, tge value of the seized property is considered to be hiw much it can be sold for, not how useful it is for the company or how much they paid for it.
When Tesla is threatened by seizing a machine used for car manufacturing that they bought for 250 000 €, but there is no other car factory that has a need for another one one of those devices unless its dirt cheap, then it might be the machine will be seized, its valued to have a resale value of 15 000 €, and after the altogether 4000 € of missing salaries to various workers are paid, the remaining 11 000 will be paid back to the company. Which can then buy another machine like that for 250 000 €. Or, if they are lucky maybe buy their noe dismantled machine back?
In any case, that’s such a horribly bad deal for the company that they definitely choose the 90 % cheaper option of just paying their debt to the workers. So, it doesn’t really ever come to actual seizing. Either they can pay the original debt or they can’t because they are bankrupt. Either way, no seizing. But it is absolutely possible to carry it through, should some company really want to be that stupid.
Cases where salary was paid by government aren’t directly available online (at least in Finland) but I personally have recieved money trough them and followed the process from the side as my previous employer was bankrupted. Also in here the tax office is the biggest entity which drives companies to dept collection and eventually to bankrupt if they don’t have money. So, yes, it happens pretty much all the time. Most of the time those are businesses which are going down anyways so there’s nothing to get, but there’s no mechanism preventing that happening to any company which doesn’t play by the rules.
deleted by creator
Bold of you to assume I’m expressing defeatism. My point is that Tesla can and will fight it. They’ll lose eventually, sure. My hope is that the union has enough money to pay the court costs.
deleted by creator
I hope so. Someone needs to stand up to him.
IG Metall is one of the largest unions we have. They have deep pockets. Also, in Germany the losing party automatically pays court fees and their opponent’s lawyers afterwards.
I would worry more about those workers who aren’t union members. It’s possible they’ll still help them out of principle, but they don’t have to.
That’s a fantastic rule that I wish were true everywhere. So many frivolous lawsuits (which Elon is well-experienced in filing) would suddenly disappear.
Well, the word “automatically” is an exaggeration. For example, if it was a close call and it seems you were in the court fairly, then the losing side might not have to pay up, at least not in full. But often they do. Better settle if you think you’ll lose. It’s a lot cheaper that way.
They don’t need to. Wage theft is a felony and while primarily will focus on the managing director of Tesla Germany GmbH, there is a good chance they will throw Elon under bus or the DA/Police/customs (especially the later have very far reaching rights in these cases and specialised departments…and now the old secretary of finance who was a trump fan is gone…) finds evidence that it happened under the influence of ELMO or his cronies (which is not that unlikely), there are a lot of people who would be very very happy to issue a warrant on these people. And that very likely would be an Interpol warrant.
Nevertheless the truly interesting thing is something else: Law enforcement can use this felonies to move in on Tesla - and anything they find due to a search warrant can easily be used for other things. And considering that the state Tesla is located in is suffering from a major draught and tries to prove that Tesla is using far more ground water than they are allowed for ages (and pollutes the rest) that could in theory even mean the downsizing or even the end of the Giga factory.
Hehehe.
One can only dream.
Remind me please who that was?
Christian fucking Lindner, who wanted “more Trump and more Milei” in the end. At least he made his own party so hated that they went from “part of the government” to “no longer in parliament”.
Oh, of course. 🤦♂️ Thankfully he’s gone now.
“more Musk and more Milei” is the quote.
They can put a lien on the factory if nothing else
I hope they do. Germany should go back to producing das richtig Nazi Auto.
I hope they rip Elon a big fat fancy new hole in his net wealth. Alas, someone, cue me the tiniest of violins 🎻
Pretty sure that’s the tiniest.
Germany needs to ban Tesla from their country as a whole. Confiscate the assets and continue to pay the workers until they’re relocated or another company buys the factories.